Motorbike simulator

[Robin Hood]

Just wanted to point out the progress being made on a pioneering bike simulaor under construction at the University of Nottingham. See link below.

http://www.test-tube.org.uk/videos/pages_alex_motorcycle_delivery.htm

[Welsh Al]

Which scientific department is this?. From this googled link
http://www.virart.nottingham.ac.uk/people/Stedmon.htm
it seems like it's either Psychology or Engineering.

I don't know why they've chosen to only look dead ahead, as they'll not be able to address any other direction with the projection methods they've chosen.

It looks more like a scientific jolly than useful research from that film. If they were using a VR suite with a helmet that simulated the interaction between the rider and the world, then I'd be interested.
At the moment, it looks like a very expensive way of replicating a laptop and a childrens' playground's spring-mounted rocking horse.

It'd be interesting to see who they are and why they're doing it. That would probably explain the methodology, but why they're involving a bike and a hydraulic rig I don't know.
'Because They Can' seems the obvious answer.

[Dusty Monster]

It'd be interesting to see who they are and why they're doing it. That would probably explain the methodology, but why they're involving a bike and a hydraulic rig I don't know.
'Because They Can' seems the obvious answer.

Because it's a start is the more obvious answer.

Look how big the first computers were, filling room after room with tapes and "memory banks" Now some computers you can put into your pocket.

Look at how big mobile phones were when they first came out, a breeze block for a battery with poor standby and talk times. My son has a phone no bigger than a box of Swan Vesta matches with a 5 hour talk time with only a need to charge his phone once a week if it's left on standby.

It's a start Al, it's how things work. They start off from a basic format and develop over time. At this point they're limited by software, memory and processing power.

In 5 or 10 years they might have a fully interactive suite when the hardware, software, firmware technology has developed.

A project like that would give the psychology department something to work with, it'll give the technology department something to work with, it'll give the programmers something to develop.

That's why they're doing it, because it's a start.

[qwakers]

besides the fact, how cool would it be to ride like rossi with no risk of killing yourself.

i want a go.

[Dusty Monster]

I wonder how they're going to cool the bike down given it'll no doubt be raced.

Fan would be one solution, but anyone who's been on a BHP testing rolling road will know that the fans to cool the engine are huge. There doesn't look to be enough space in that little room.

[qwakers]

i doubt they need the engine.

[Dusty Monster]

i doubt they need the engine.

Depends on what they're gonna do and how they're going to implement it doesn't it?

If it's going to be a rolling road they will need the engine, if it's going to be a pure simulator then I think I'd agree with Al in the sense they're doing it because they can, not because it's going to serve some real purpose.

[qwakers]

i suspect theyre doing it for the reason every uni does everything, for education.

[Dusty Monster]

Fair point, but given the pass rate for a degree is as low as 65% I don't think education really comes into it any more.

[qwakers]

the pass rate is low because only 65% of the people that go are capable of passing their degree. the rest go for the social life.

[Dusty Monster]

the pass rate is low because only 65% of the people that go are capable of passing their degree. the rest go for the social life.

No it isn't, the pass score for a 2:1 degree is 65% of the final paper.

[qwakers]

 

run that by me again, im confused......

[Dusty Monster]

run that by me again, im confused......

You take a final paper which is scored for your degree.

For a 2:1 degree you need only a 65% mark.

You can get a 1st Hons on 88% which is what I have, (though I scored a 91%). The old score for that used to be 98% or above.

[Welsh Al]

A start to what, though?.

If the geezer's interested in ergonomics, then his video statement that there's very little known about riding positions is nonsense.

If he's looking at design's effect on the psyche, then he's not innovative at all; every track day will show you how people can turn up on a Pan and go mad on a CBR600RR, then mooch away gently again on the Pan.

But it's the methodology that I'm questioning mostly, as any mistakes there will just multiply throughout the data.
Honestly, how can you even begin to simulate riding a motorcycle with only a head-on view?. Most of the modern bike test is about looking in your mirrors and over your shoulder before almost all manoeuvres.

If you can't do shoulder checks, it's no better than sitting at a games arcade motorbike game, so how is this geezer spending the research money any better than someone who gets Namco's finest in a lab?. What's he need a Daytona for?.

Anyway, as he states that it's the weather that would stop research, I think his focus is too abstract to shape the project. Can't ride unless it's sunny, can't see anything unless it's dead ahead, can't balance on the bike, can't fall over if it goes wrong, can't mix with real-world traffic...

Like I said, it'll be interesting to see what they actually do.

[qwakers]

run that by me again, im confused......

You take a final paper which is scored for your degree.

For a 2:1 degree you need only a 65% mark.

You can get a 1st Hons on 88% which is what I have, (though I scored a 91%). The old score for that used to be 98% or above.

ah sorry i misunderstood, i thought you meant only 65% of people pass.

[Dusty Monster]

run that by me again, im confused......

You take a final paper which is scored for your degree.

For a 2:1 degree you need only a 65% mark.

You can get a 1st Hons on 88% which is what I have, (though I scored a 91%). The old score for that used to be 98% or above.

ah sorry i misunderstood, i thought you meant only 65% of people pass.

No problem The truth be known it's probably less than that who actually pass anyway.

When I did my HND computing course we started off with 2 people to 1 computer. 3 Years later when I  came up to my final exam we had 3 computers for every person remaining in the class.

When I did my MCSE, MCP and NCE we had 40 people starting the course, at the end of it there was me and 4 others.

And when I did my psychology, we started off with over 1,000 starting the course. A lot vanished after the first day once they'd picked up their student loan cheques. At the end of it only 102 people turned up for the final exams.

[Ken S]

Using simulators is a very good training tool, all trainee drivers on my train operating company are trained on simulators. It is very realistic and they can throw all sorts of sinarios at them. They even used it to test how long it is safe to drive trains at 125mph, reaction times with signals, the list is endless, so yes you are right IF there is no way of bringing other observations into the simulator then it will be limmited but who is to say thay are not going to suround the bike with screens amd project information onto them. I think its a case of don't kick it till you have tried it.

[jonfp]

^ We had a stove each, and I had a full box of knives to myself . 

One day we even got a whole chicken to work on, but for the end of term project we had to share a boars head between 12 students. Reckon the cash must have run out

[Ken S]

^ We had a stove each, and I had a full box of knives to myself . 

One day we even got a whole chicken to work on, but for the end of term project we had to share a boars head between 12 students. Reckon the cash must have run out

But Jon did you ave an apple each to stick in its mouth.

[Welsh Al]

Jeez Jon, buying a bike's harsh oop norf, eh?.

[MellowMatty]

Hahahah I'm mates with some of the guys doing this! The student who doesn't sit on the bike was my housemate, I'm going to rip him for laughing like an idiot and saying "it's quite good" when clearly it's awesome!

I was talking to them this weekend about this project, I'm pretty sure I'm right in thinking that it doesn't actually have an engine in, it's just all the body work... I think the idea is to have hydraulics or something that replicate all the physics you get when riding a bike normally, so you'd have to lean etc as you would on a real bike. As you may have guessed we didn't really get into the details...

I can try and find out some more stuff if you guys are interested?

Edit: Al - they're mechanical engineers, I'm not really sure if there is an aim, you're probably not too far off saying they're doing it because they can! I'm probably going to get told off by one of them for saying that though...

[Ken S]

Hi Matty
 go one better and get them to come on the forum and give us the info on what they are trying to do and how the are going about it. It is clear that they have an intrest in bikes, who knows we may be able to assist them with some info, So long as there is a £1000 prize (see another post).

[MellowMatty]

I'll give it a go, but if there's a prize for £1000 I'm bagsying it!

[Ken S]

I'll give it a go, but if there's a prize for £1000 I'm bagsying it!

Don't think anybody saw the last one that was offered mate

[Robin Hood]

Hi,

I'm following this project as a film-maker and do not have any expertise in engineering or riding.

I'm also not about "defending" this project... I think some interesting points have been raised already in this thread...

However I'd like to provide a little more context...

My understanding is that this is the start of a project with a particular focus on "human factors" and ergonomics - how riders interact with their bike.

It is an ongoing process starting with some basic designs and work as a student project, but Alex (the man overseeing it) has plans for the simulator to evolve over time as more money and resources become available.

A bright and enthusiastic group of students are working with Alex on this first stage, but I think in a few years you will see a very different simulator to what is being worked on now.

It is perhaps unfair to judge the simulator as a whole at this early stage... Alex is allowing me to film the evolution of the project because of some work I am doing in relation to the "behind the scenes" work of engineers and scientists... not because this is the "finished product" that he is showing off.

I think Alex (a rider himself) is well aware of the limitations of a simulator, but he is passionate about pioneering "motorcycle ergonomic" as a discipline and I personally admire his ambition and ability to gain funding for this project in the exteremly competetive world of research funding.

Triumph generously donating that bike I think is a glowing endorsemnet at such an early stage.

As I said, I'm no expert but those who would like to find out more could look at these short clips also... The first one had quite abit about Alex's goals in the field of motorcycle ergonmics in the first 5-6 minutes of the clip for those who have time to look.

The second is just a roughly edited clip of Alex at an early meeting with his students, but you may pick up a little about what they are discussing.

http://www.test-tube.org.uk/videos/pages_meet_alex_stedmon.htm

http://www.test-tube.org.uk/videos/pages_alex_motorcycle_student_meeting.htm

Have enjoyed reading everyone's feedback and thanks for having a look... I'll post more links as this project unfolds.

Oh and for those who queried, the chassis indeed does NOT have an engine.

[Dusty Monster]

Oh and for those who queried, the chassis indeed does NOT have an engine.

Wouldn't that therefore invalidate any finding on how a rider interacts with a bike?

I dunno about anyone else, but I can reasonably guestimate how fast/slow I'm going by the engine tune. I would assume a running engine is part and parcel of how riders interact with their bikes.

I'm sure lots who have freewheeled their bikes down a hill while sitting on them will say their bike feels completely different without the engine running. It's a bit like being towed in a car with no running engine.

[Welsh Al]

No, not at all. One of the major and unavoidable compromises is that you won't be able to move the simulator. You don't need an engine to simulate weight, and you don't need to move the bike, so you don't need an engine.

They aren't trying to emulate a bike, just simulate it.

It won't invalidate the research data, but that data is questionable as anything other than an ergonomic study or a psychological test.

There's a lot to a motorbike to simulate, so to invalidate the data, they'd have to have 4 wheels and Recaro seats.

[Dusty Monster]

Hmmm, I'd still say for a true simulation you need the bike fully working as though it was on the road otherwise you may as well do studies on someone playing Space Invaders.

[Wheelspin]

Yeah, I always find simulators some bits of feedback missing hard work.  Like a blind man using hearing to get about, you either need a lot of training and practice or you need a lot of concentration.  Both of which completely alter the way you do an activity.

[Ken S]

The simulator at work has sounds, vibrations etc and it does feel like you are driving a train, ( so experianced drivers tell me) I think it all depends on what you are going to put into the computors that work the thing, and of course how much money you are going to throw at it.